Israel Has Every Duty and Right To

People are going insane.  Most of them are socialist liberals without a doggon clue about the world.  The veritable arm-chair “thinkers” that don’t have any idea what the real world is like.

[This Article has been re-written, and dedicated to “Inside_passage”]

You see, I had written this very long, yet far too truncated, history of modern day Israel and Palestine.  Yes, it was missing some history prior to the history I wrote about.  Thanks to a brilliant comment by one “Inside_Passage”, I have found that history completely unnecessary.  My mistake was to use history to explain a completely insane and stupid situation in the middle east.  A situation that is so childish yet has caused problems with the world for centuries.

Various “experts” from both sides try to say it’s the UK’s fault for the situation.  Some say they caused their own problem and are reaping the consequences for their stupid pride.  Some say it’s their religion that has prolonged the situation and aggravated it.

Regardless, of the cause, regardless of the situation, the facts today are that there is a nation called Israel, and a bunch of Palestinians that just love to lob bombs into Israel, and Israel retaliates and bombs them back.  A sad vengeful circle has been running for a long time.  Problem is, one side, Israel has tried to make peace, and has given land and resources asked for by the other to form their own nation.  What happens?  The other side doesn’t want peace at all.  Their reason for lobbing bombs and sending in their innocent young as walking bombs is to eradicate Israel from existence along with the people in it.  Demonstrating a most evil side of pride the world has ever seen.  Palestine has shown time and time again their “cease fires” cannot be trusted, and have demonstrated they just use them to find more strategic locations to bomb Israel.

Regardless of the weirdness of the past, and previous generations, one must understand that such vengeful circular and destructive behavior only results in the destruction of the nation or people participating in it.  When the enemy (Israel) has done everything asked of them more than once to get peace of their enemy (Palestine), and then just get bombed again a month later by Palestine, you tend to realize that Palestine doesn’t want peace, they want you dead, and a vivid reality begins to overcome you.

How do you define “innocent” when a child is indoctrinated to hate Jews and the find every opportunity to kill them from the time they speak, how do you say they are innocent?  Especially when the militant adults, in a cowardly way, surround themselves with the “innocent” to make retaliation by Israel look bad.

A nation, whether you “recognize” them or not, has a right to defend its borders and citizens from outside attacks.  If you stockpile rocket launchers in the basement of a school, then it’s your fault your children died from a military strike to destroy it, not those that destroyed it.

While I don’t doubt there are people in Palestine that would rather just live a peaceful life.  However, when the well funded Hamas gives you free medical care and schools your kids, it’s hard to tell them to get lost.  The Israeli’s, on the other hand, would just rather the bombing on both sides stop.  What the Palestinians don’t admit, is the reason why they are living in a bombed out house with a child missing a leg, is the very people that gave them the wooden leg  and is schooling their children.  Unfortunately, as long as Hamas and other such organizations exist, true peace in the middle east just won’t happen.  It’s this whole sick idea that they are entitled to the land.

Hamas, PLO, etc has always been offensive toward Israel, and Israel has always responded defensively offensive (a valid war term).  They bomb Palestine because Palestine has been relentlessly bombing them.  Israel has stopped many times, and it has always been Palestinians that broke the truce.

The UN has never been kind to Israel.  Of course, the UN has always been a bloated and inept bureaucracy friendly only to themselves and their own power.

I still say Israel has every right to defend themselves.  One of the first rules of war is to absolutely and totally demoralize and obliterate the enemy until THEY sue for peace, not when some arbitrary arm-chair bureaucracy says stop.  Israel has the right, after all these years of this insane crap they put up with from people that openly cry time and time again, not for peace, but Israel’s ultimate destruction by, and I quote, “bathing the sand in their blood”.  Claiming to want the genocide of a people is no way to illicit sympathy or sue for peace.  Yet it’s what liberals love to do, is sympathize with these blood thirsty murderers.

Hamas deserves no negotiations.  Want the retaliations to stop?  Get rid of Hamas and stop sending rockets into Israel.  When a group of people have become so bloodthirsty that all they want is the death and utter destruction of another group of people, then what’s really going to happen is their own utter destruction, because the world, as a whole, does not accept such behavior out of any nation or people.  It’s a simple solution for such a “complicated” problem.  As long as you are genocidal, you will be destroyed.

Here’s how I see it:

  • Israel wants to exist in peace.  Would rather do business and commerce with their neighbors without fear of attack.  However, will retaliate against aggression to their sovereignty and people.
  • “Palestine” (as a group) wants Israel off the map, and then have peace.  Will do anything, sick and bloody to do it, even send their own children with bombs strapped to them to do it.  Will only make treaties if it’s militarily convenient at the time to better position themselves without fear of discovery.  As Islam teaches that morality and social rules of behavior only apply to other Muslims.  It’s OK to lie to infidels, even in contracts and treaties, as long as it benefits you or “Allah”.  I can see why they always think they have never done anything wrong, as according to their own religion, murdering, raping, and stealing from infidels is allowed especially if you are in Jihad.  Even more so if those infidels are Jews.

 

18 Responses to “Israel Has Every Duty and Right To”

  1. Hullo again. Thanks for the kudos, it’s always nice to see something I’ve written perceived in the fashion it was intended rather than “omgz u hate the jews”. Being considered brilliant was a bit more than expected, but hey, take the glory when it falls, right? ;)I don’t have much to say on Britain as they kept themselves irrelevant to the situation, even when they were in the UN. As for the UN – as you say, inept bureacracy, and additionally prone to corruption for its more powerful members’ goals.Something you’ve said here clicks, and it doesn’t fit with the rest of what you wrote. This is a circle of vengeance, exactly that… this is not one side as victim and the other side as vile aggressors, but a cycle of violence by the leaders (Israeli and Palestinian). Israel is no more justified than they are, they are a government prone to radical overreaction to any perceived slight. Former president Carter suggests Hamas be an integral part of the peace process? Clearly he’s a racist, voiced by Israel’s own “diplomats”. Some Lebanese extremists capture a couple Israelis, the whole country must pay. Palestinian extremists are proof that all Palestinians must not be recognized as a country, yet it’s downright racist to suggest that the Israelis shouldn’t either? Iran’s leader spouts the usual rhetoric about holocaust nonsense? Shore up the nukes. Find some intel that suggests an attack? Break the truce, blame Hamas and murder 350+ Palestinians, whether they have anything to do with the ensuing rocket attacks or not.There is defense, and then there is Israel. What they do is asbolute bastardization of the word “defense”. Any other nation doing what they do would be(and has been) internationally condemned, and rightly so. Here in the United States, we are required to tread lightly in Iraq, a country with as many extremists, local and foreign as Israel. Our soldiers are held to an accounting, our nation is held under scrutiny by the world, and our government (despite everything they attempt to do to not be held accountable) is judged accordingly.As we judge Hamas and any other murderer of innocent people, we must judge Israel. You know as well as I do that the majority of Palestinians are not guilty of what Hamas is.We should also remember exactly what standard the Israelis are demanding the Palestinians hold to here. Hamas is designated terrorist in nature by the Israeli nation. No Palestinian may attack Israel without being similarily condemned. Yet Israel bombs these people without regard for their lives, racking up hundreds of casualties in response to four Israeli citizens lives lost, in a “war to the bitter end.” Palestinians aren’t allowed to fight back, they’re only allowed to die.Defense? Only in the sickest sense of the word.

  2. There is no such thing as a “disproportionate” response to an act of war.  This is one thing many people tend to ignore in this situation.  You reap what you sow.  Whether you agree with the fact Israel is there legitimately or not is no longer a valid issue, and let me explain.  Throughout history, wars have decided boundaries.  Well (and I don’t believe I’m doing this), in the summer of 1967 there was a war between all of these people involved (Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and even Iraq) all combined against Israel.  Israel soundly and quickly won that war in a mere six days, and increased their borders in the process.It’s the winner of a war that gets to dictate the terms of surrender.  One was that Israel exists.  With only 49 dead on their side, and a combined (under 20000) on the coalition’s side, I am sure they made their point.  Whether one’s religion refuses to accept that fact, is irrelevant, whatever the complicated past that resulted in Israel’s modern day existence is irrelevant.  A war was fought as a result of those culminating issues and for Israel, was won, and for the Palestinians soundly lost.I do know for a fact that Israel has tried numerous times to help with relocation and rebuilding for those displaced by the war (which they didn’t have to).So now one must decide for themselves, was the six day war really over in six days or not?  Either way, it goes morally to Israel’s favor.  If it is over, then the Palestinians bombed Israel first and Israel has every right to retaliate in acts of war against their sovereignty in whatever method it takes to stop it.  War is not a police action; it, unlike a police action usually involves a victory not a calming down.  If the war really isn’t over, then Israel still has a right to defend itself against Palestinian bombings.Listen, if you lob a few hand held rocket rounds to your enemy and then cry foul when they launch a couple bunker busters into the building where you are standing, then you do not understand what you have gotten yourself and those near by into.You see, Israel and their enemies know who their military is and where they are.  If Palestine was so concerned about innocents getting killed, they wouldn’t use their own to strap bombs on them and blow up buses full of civilians.  Also, the Palestinians place themselves within civilians to not only hide themselves but also use those civilians as a shield.  Clearly violating the Geneva convention rules of war.  Oh wait, no specific government is fighting Israel (we all know who’s funding Hamas though) and thus there is no Geneva restriction for Israel either.So, regardless if you approve of Israel’s responses to attacks on their sovereignty, is really irrelevant.  They won the war.  They got to dictate the terms.  One of them was the right to exist in a peaceful manner.You brought up my mentioning of the vengeful circle.  Yes, but you seem to forget Israel has shown more than once their willingness to stop it, has even turned land over won in the six day war as a gesture to stop the violence, and even got an agreement by these terrorist groups to accept it (obviously a strategic lie, Allah says you can lie to the enemy, even with treaties).  Sure enough when everyone thinks peace is finally there, a bus is blown up or a rocket is launched into Israel and it starts all over again.No sir, I have only one people to blame for their own misery and that is the Palestinians.  Their own stubbornness and ridiculous acceptance of Hamas into their communities is their own fault.Does a nation have to be like Vlad Teppisch of Transylvania to get these people to stop?  I sincerely hope not.  Israel, if it was an aggressor, could have easily conquered most of the middle east at the time of the six days war.  They had effectively destroyed everything the other countries had to defend themselves on both air and ground.  Instead they chose to take a small strip of land that only a very small few had lived on. No my friend, Israel soundly deffended themselves and earned the right to exist, and they still defend themselves against jackasses that simply will not accept reality as it is.

  3. Before I get into replying to the rest, I’d like to point out a
    contradiction in your posts. You talk about how awful it is that the
    Palestinians are willing to murder, rape and so on in the name of their
    God, and at the same time you suggest that there is no such thing as
    disproportionate response in a war. By your own reasoning, Israel has
    reaped what in sowed by building a foundation on murder and theft.

    That doesn’t even touch on the morality of the situation. It’s that
    sort of sick thinking that leads men like Hitler to believe that since
    the Jews have reaped what they sowed, even a Holocaust is acceptable.
    And after all, they won that war. Don’t they have the right? Of course
    not. That’s vile. It’s a double standard created to whitewash what one
    side does while demonizing the other.

    As I pointed out before, and you seem to keep forgetting, the war with
    Israel predates 1967. Israel is a warchild, it was born in blood and
    murder and that war never ended, only the names of the wars between
    that war to exist.

    Israel has never accepted that reasoning that wars decide what is
    right, and its that lack of acceptance that inspired Jewish terorrists
    that I mentioned before to murder British simply so they could form
    their own homeland. Upon declaring their independence, they were
    attacked in combat that predated the declaration, and that attack was
    joined by Jordan, Egypt and Syria. In a politically clever move, the
    war was ended by Israel annexxing even more land than allocated under
    the Mandate, and dividing up the spoils with the so-called liberators
    who were helping the Palestinians. The equivalent these days would be
    the USA invading Iraq, Iran coming to their defense, then a truce
    involving dividing up Iraq betwen the two of them. A mere strip of land indeed.

    20 years later, the bad blood is still there. As such, Israel commits
    an act of war, which according to your reasoning, means they deserve
    whatever they get coming. That act of war results in their expansion
    after a mere six days.

    Nothing lost by anybody, nothing gained. Except the Palestinians of
    course, and they don’t matter, right? Israel continues to demand to
    have its own right to exist, but will only acknowledge theirs if they
    allow themselves to be subjugated, all in the names of “peaceful
    intent” of course.

    It’s been going on without end ever since then, and to pretend that
    Israel is without any culpability is wrong. Yes, the Palestinians play
    a role in that, as well as the Israelis, as they raise up such
    governments to support them, but ultimately those peoples remain
    unrepresented.

    Nobody gives a damn about the Palestinians, except supposedly the
    Hamas. The US certainly doesn’t care and only pays lip service in the
    form of money that is quickly frozen by Israel. Israel cares even less.
    Hamas pays lip service, but its clear they only want one thing –
    Israel’s destruction. This leaves the Palestinians with nothing. No
    solution whatsoever. Hamas extremists hide among their number, and the
    Israelis expect them to rid themselves of it as if those folks somehow
    had a magic ability to see the difference. Hamas would as happily kill
    the Palestinians they claim to represent should they interfere.

    They’re left between a rock and a hard place. Yet you have the audacity
    to condemn them for doing the best they can for themselves? Suicide
    bombers do not represent them, these are people who believe they have
    been driven to the only out they have left. Killing the superior force
    and doing it with their own lives. Those willing to use them as tools
    tell them its in the name of their god. End result, a few dead fools, and Israel takes out innocent Palestinians in retatliation. 
    You mention the Geneva convention, and how it only applies in specific circumstance, but it says no such thing. Feel free to quote if if I’m wrong. I refer specifically to the Fourth Convention. Hamas is guilty as are the Israeli governments that violate it. They should be held accountable as such.You say that Israel has showed willingness for peace, implying that they’ve bent over backwards to accomodate, and there is no truth to any of it. Israel has placed ridiculous conditions, violated truces in the name of intel (see current events) and conducted itself in a fashion so as to promote terrorism, attacking the families of terrorists who have done nothing, starving the Palestinian people in order to pressure a government that doesn’t care about them.. Why allow the Palestinian people to prosper and become a real nation, if they can simply use any excuse to kill them while the world looks the other way? Hamas, despite its constant railing and whining, is no threat to anybody, as proven by the whole four Israelis they’ve killed in the latest conflict. Israel’s right to exist will never be taken away short of a nuclear conflict, despite all the outside posturing because in case you’ve forgotten… they’re a nuclear superpower. The only way for that to happen is for the USA to abandon them. Safely seated in their sovreignty, with the might of the USA behind them, they can do anything they want to a people they happily deny the same rights they demand from. Yes, they certainly are peace-minded, aye?If Israeli wants peace, they have to make a mutual effort to promote it. They’ve done no such thing. Israel’s lies are no less horrendous than Hamas’s.

  4. Ah, I see you have read into the PLO’s rhetoric.  Yes, I know the PLO is nothing more than a political organization now, what’s left of it.  Nevertheless, I am quite fascinated at how much propaganda the PLO taught has become “history”.I love how you describe how Israel won the six days war by “cleverly annexing land”.  Let’s see, you had Egypt massing troops to the south at Sinai, Jordan amassing troops to the East near Jerusalem, and Syria amassing troops on the Golan Heights.  All playing a threatening game of “we will paint the desert with their blood”, and other similar threatening statements.  These threats of extinction were said in public forums and even in the UN itself.  Your comparison of the Iraq-US war falls flat here.  The US-Iraq war was a pre-emptive strike against a nation that their spies said had weapons of mass destruction ready to be used against the other.  The Six day war was a result of 100% proof of a threat, not the word of an intelligence agency.It wasn’t a matter of “if” they were going to try and do what they said to Israel, it was a matter of “when”.  Israel’s pre-emptive strike was genius, and they won a war against ingredible odds, in a mere six days.  This war and the annexation of land never would have happened if Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq had not threatened them in the first place.  Israel never amassed troops against them.  Never threatened war against them.  Talk about hypocracy!  Once again, Israel won the war, and annexed land to create a buffer zone so such military threats wouldn’t be so threatening in the future.  All I say is, be glad they didn’t continue the war and annex a lot more.Your comparison of Htler also has holes.  The Jews weren’t amassing troops against Germany.  They were threatening to paint the ground in their blood.  In fact, they were just trying to live their lives every day.  What gained Hitler his power was envy and jealousy.  Because of the success of the Jewish people, a result of culture, not genes, caused people like Hitler great jealousy especially since Germany was relatively bankrupt since the first world war and the Jewish people were actually doing pretty well considering.  Also, not every group has all good apples, it is claimed by those that knew Hitler, that his grandmother was raped by a Jew she was housekeeper for, and he was thus a her decendant, thus being part Jewish himself.  Nevertheless, not provable, but certainly possible.The Jews weren’t lobbing rockets into Berlin on a daily basis.  The Jews didn’t hide weapons of war in schools and synagogs.  The Jews weren’t sending their children in to blow themselves up in a populated square.  The Jews were bankers, deli owners, financiers, business owners etc.  They also, as a culture kept pretty much to themselves.  The Jews weren’t proclaiming on a regular basis that they wanted to kill every German and let the land flow in their blood.Your Hitler comparison is pure fantasy as you present it.  No, I think it works better with my analogy.You compare the Palestinian people to the suicide bombers and try to separate them.  Listen christians/bhuddists/whatever don’t teach their children to hate a particular group of people, including Jews.  If a movement arose to suicide bomb (which is contrary to the religion), they would teach in their worship services to not do it and how wrong it is, and the eternal consequences if they did, and to encourage parents to teach as well openly condemning the act.  Yet, children are being taught to hate Jews, to kill Jews and Allah will bless them and their families.  You also have groups offering rewards for sacrificing a child “for the cause”.  There’s no open movement to stop the killing.  There’s no condemning the practice.  There are actually well funded training (indoctrination) facilities for suicide bombers.  There’s celebration when one sacrifices themselves to kill innocents (we see this all the time), and then mourning when half of them die from the retaliation attack.If you ask me, these people are either collasally stupid, or their God is.You compare the attempted extermination of the Jews in World War Two to the Palestinians and that is a failed comparison.  The Palestinians welcome groups like Hamas because of the money and free handouts they give in exchange for the indoctrination of their children.  The Palestinians feed Hamas the bodies and soldiers they need.  They allow them to stockpile weapons in their schools and mosques.  They allow their children to be taught to be killers and hate Jews and westerners.  They lie to young men with strong lebidos by saying 72 virgins will be Allah’s reward to them for being a walking bomb.  The family accepts the large reward when their child actually blows themselves up.  There’s no mourning, there’s celebration for killing innocents and the death of their child.  That’s sick, that’s like Hitler. You can’t convince me that is innocent behavior of people not actively involved in actions against Israel.If the innocents are too stupid to remove their children from a school with weapons stashed in it, or continue to worship at a mosque where only hours before, rockets were being launched out of it towards Israel, then I’m afraid they are casualties of war.You mentioned the Geneva Conventions.  Oddly enough, it says military targets and not civilian.  I’m afraid a mosque of school with rockets in it is a military target.  If the people are so angry about the innocents killed as a result of the destrution of that military target, then maybe they should take that cache of weapons and use them against those that put them there in the first place.  No, much of the blame can be placed on the Palestinians by allowing Hamas to place innocents as shields to their weaponry.  No, but money talks, and Hamas has a lot of it.  Keep shifting the blame to the ones that destroyed the weapons and you’ve got a bunch of willing, angry, idiots to do your bidding.I challenge you with something.  A thought exercize.  What if Israel offered the Palestinian people a deal.  They let Israel completely remove Hamas from their lands, with their assistance, and Israel will rebuild their towns, their schools and their mosques, give them a nice place to live.  They must promise to not lob rockets into Israel, and tell Israel who did if that happened.  They already tried having the Palestinians do this themselves, but it didn’t work and Yassir Arafat got rich in the process. We all know the Palestinians would say no, because of what they have been taught since childhood.  That is to hate and kill Jews, and as long as Israel exists, that is the mandate.Nope, that is the true problem of the middle east.  It wasn’t the british, it’s not the Americans.  It’s not the French.  It’s not the Russians.  It’s the absolute strangehold Islam and its leaders (whatever “version” they choose to teach at the time) have on its people that is threatened.  The prospec of losing that power and control is far too threatening than just a small nation of Jews on a small strip of land.  It’s not about lands and territories.  It’s about control of those people on that land.  Free nations like Israel and the new Republic of Iraq are the greatest threat to Islam in centuries.  No more kings or Sultans to rule with an iron fist in the name of Allah.  A schizophrenic and cowardly god that encourages pedophilia, rape, lying, deceiving, and murder all in his name, as long as it’s against an “infidel”.  A god who’s position and teachings are so weak, he must threaten death to non-believers.  How convenient!  A god, who so-called prophet says he keeps changing his mind and to disregard the previous “truth” o
    r “prophecy”, all coincidentally in favor of what the “prophet” wants to do next.  How convenient to have such an accomodating god to his prophet, but not to any other of his followers.I am Christian (as if you couldn’t tell), not Jewish, not anything else, but in my religion, that the individual that tried to usurp freedom of choice from the masses and proclaim himself above God was called Lucifer, Satan, the Devil.  He was cast out of the presence of God and vowed to make others miserable like himself (he lost everything).  We are told the Devil will use 95% truth just to get you to believe the 5% that is the lie.  I see this in the religion of the Palestinians.  I see the behavior that is irrational because it is taught to them as “from Allah”.  There is not “because it’s the right thing to do” in their consciences.  I just see, “death to the infidels”, “death to the Jews”, “it’s OK to lie to an Infidel or Jew, because they are less than a believer”, I see “It’s OK to trade or make treaties with an infidel or Jew as long as it benefits Allah in the end”, I see “no treaty, with an infidel, is to last longer than ten years, and must end with their blood”  It is behavior that breeds misery and hatred.You say Hamas is no threat to Israel, short of a nuclear bomb.  Why then are people dying in Israel as a direct result of Hamas?  According to your argument, if hamas is just an annoying gnat to Israel, then why not just let Israel annex much more land, enough to where those “harmless” rockets couldn’t reach the population?  Oh wait, Israel tried that once, but the PLO and Hamas just got bigger rockets.  With Iran in the mix, the nuclear bomb is not far off.  Your claims of the “unthreatening” Hamas are completely without merit.This “endless circle” could stop if Hamas stopped.  If the attitude of “killing the Jews” changed to “let’s just all get along”.  I’m sure Israel would rather be doing trade and business with their neighbors than bombing them.  Israel has made many gestures of peace and the Palestinians have just spit on their outstreached hands.Such behavior only resulted in the eventual extinction of a nation, not their victory.  If all one wants to do is kill you, and nothing else, then you have no choice but to kill him to protect yourself and your family.  That’s the moral difference here.I’m quite sure Israeli soldiers have done things they shouldn’t have in the anger of war, just as the other side has.  This I do not deny.  However, the two societies have differing views of the situation and one has never should a willingness to sue for peace.

  5. I think it’s interesting that you denounce written history as PLO
    rhetoric suggesting that we must accept the Israeli version of the
    truth, and ONLY the Israeli version. Victors write the history books,
    true or not. Is that how it goes?
    I do not accept PLO’s ridiculous version of lack of Palestinian accountability anymore than I do Israel’s.Realize that you are speaking of a different war than I am. You are talking about the 6 day war… I am talking about the one that took place 17 years before, upon Israel’s declaration of independence. The one where they annexxed Palestinian land, and divided up even more with the aggressors once that war was over. Not to be confused with the Six-Day War, even if the aggressors were the same greedy tools.

    Understand that I am not comparing Israel to Hitler. They are not even
    close, though their actions are sickening. I am comparing the mentality
    behind the rationalization to Hitler’s. There’s a whole book of
    nonsense behind what he thinks about why the Jews are evil, and it
    ultimately boils down to “they have it coming”. According to the
    ridiculous reasoning that might makes right, that morality doesn’t
    matter…. he was right.

    Which is clearly wrong.

    What you don’t seem to get is that the Palestinians aren’t on a
    campaign to exterminate Jews from the world. That’s nothing more than
    Israeli propaganda, a giant-sized strawman they’ve erected so that they
    can yell racism at anyone that dares to crtiicize their actions.
    Palestinians hate Jews, certianly. Israeli Jews. The extension of that,
    that the Jewish people as a whole deserve to die, belongs to the
    extremist groups. They and the Palestinian people are not one and the
    same.

    Tell me something. You have a people here with a limited education,
    living under permanent siege pinned between extremists and Israel. The
    extremists do nothing to them unless they interfere, but Israel kills
    them and the USA watches with callous disregard. Do you expect anything
    other than hatred in those circumstances? Are you really so irrational
    to believe that? Despite that hatred, despite what they are subjected
    to, they attempt to go about their daily lives…. most of them. A few
    join the numbers of the extremists, believing they have nothing to live
    for and kill themselves. A few – or Israel would be besieged in wave
    after wave of death.

    Tell me something. As an American, you know that we have our own
    extremists, people who commit horrific acts over here, support horrific
    acts overseas. Are we all to be judged by them? Of course not. It’s a
    double standard, and a bigoted one at that, to judge an entire people
    by the actions of a few. Note that I say actions. Hatred is not a
    crime, not even here in the US. In fact, it’s considered a point of
    pride that we allow hate speech.
    I stand corrected on the subject of the Geneva convention, but surprisingly, not by what you said. Were the Palestinian people a recognized nation, it would be a violation… but they are not, and are specifically excluded. Any target can be a military target, and indiscriminately blowing away civilians is considered a violation. Lucky for Israel that the Palestinians aren’t signatories, eh? That explains their insistence that the Palestinians not be recognized as one. How charming.
    A clarification here, and I think that this stems from your incomplete
    understanding of Israeli history. You are talking about the SIx-Day
    War, I am talking about the war that began 17 years before, when
    Israeli declared their independence. Prior to that war, they had
    allocated lands, as did the Palestinians, under the Mandate. After
    declaring independence, they annexed more territory, and when the
    so-called war initiated in Palestine’s defense was over, more of the
    Palestinian territory was divided up amongst the aggressors.

    Hence the hypothetical scenario between the US and Iran in Iraq.

    Seventeen years later, the six-day war. At which point the people that
    already claimed to hate Israel, block Israel’s use of the Red Sea.
    Israel considers this excuse for an act of war, referred to
    specifically I believe as ‘casus belli’ and launches their campaign
    taking a great victory. You assume that an attack is impending simply
    because of the usual rhetoric, spouted a whole 17 years later? Sounds
    as premediated as the current events.

    You ask why people are dying as a result of Hamas. What was that death
    toll, at last count?  Four? Five? Serial killers are more of a threat.
    You expect me to take them as seriously as I do Al’Qaeda, or even the
    IRA?

    Iran is a non-issue, nothing more than another strawman set up by
    Israel to aggravate us here in the United States. Oh dear, what a
    threat. What if Iran launches a nuke into Israel, or gives it to
    terrorists to do the same with….?!?

    MAD, that’s what happens. Israel is a nuclear superpower, something
    Iran is not, and when that happens, you can damn well bet Iran knows
    that Israel has contingencies in place to take them down with them. You
    might think, well, they could be the largest suicide bomber ever, but
    that would be ridiculous, to believe that Iran would sacrifice the
    entire Islamic faith (and that’s what it amounts to when American
    Muslims are as much infidels as we are) for the glory of Allah.
    That only works with pawns serving the greater glory of Allah. To kill
    the entire faith in a single futile act would be an attack against
    their god. I don’t think they’re quite that foolish, or they’d have
    taken out Israel and themselves already
    I have a hard time believing that you’re really so ignorant as to believe a statement like “If the Palestinians cared about their kids, they’d remove them from schools with weapons in them.” You act as if every Palestinian is a member of Hamas, and has equal knowledge of where they hide their (intentionally, they’re at war, for god sake) weapons. As an American, I can tell you where military bases are, and THOSE are public… but where we stash our weapons? Yeah, sure. Even less so for a paramilitary like Hamas. Yet they’re supposed to know things even the world-reknowned Israel Intelligence has a hard time finding out?Worse, you expect them to be able to stop a fleeing terrorist before the Israeli helicopters lob a rocket into a crowd of civilians to take that terrorist out? That’s sick thinking.Regarding your thought exercise: The end result is a puppet nation beneath the direct dictatorship of Israel. Do you think those people would really accept that? Do you think there’s anything reasonable about it? Do note that you’re talking about a people that Israel has been kiling for generation. Also note that it’s no easier for the Palestinians to do such a thing than it is for the Iraqis.As a lapsed Christian, I see no point in debating the particulars of blood-thirsty gods, as it will only result in an angry back-and-forth. I will however, point out that your thinking is meaningless in the face of existing nations where Muslims live in peace with the infidels. The USA is a shining example of this. Muslims CAN learn to reconicile their beliefs and not conduct themselves like bloodthirsty savages…. as Christians have done, yet even in this day and age still occasionally continue to do.Circles are exactly that. They do not stop unless both sides stop. Getting along only works if both sides are willing to cooperate. Israel has shown they are not willing to do anything but make the situation worse with each act they commit.Israel’s view is clear. All must submit, or all must die. It doesn’t matter if the rest of the Palestinians don’t do anything wrong, their lives are meaningless unless they give those lives up for the brand of peace Israel demands.

  6. I like your second to last paragraph.  In order for it to qualify, one must ignore the last fifteen years of history.  Where Israel gave back plots of land, agreed to a Palestinian State (which DOES exist right now, but is pretty much inept now as it has been infiltrated by Hamas sympathizers).  Yeah, let’s pretend none of that happened.  Yep, Israel is the bad guy here.I know where you’re going with the religious violence thing.  True those claiming to be “Christian” committed horrible acts (in history), nevertheless, those acts are not condoned in the teachings of that religion.  In fact, are commanded against.  THe big difference is the bad behavior was not endorsed by the doctrine, and keeping the doctrine away from the people made it easy to control the people.  When the doctrine finally became known, thanks to the printing press, the stranglehold of the false “Christians” fell because they weren’t practicing what Christ taught.  Hence Martin Luther and the eventual Protestant movement.Islam, on the other hand, has as its base doctrine, violence against the infidel.  Sure, peace is preferred, but violence is encouraged if the people of Allah don’t get what they want.  It has as its doctrine caviats to morality.  Treat a fellow Muslim with respect, honesty, etc. etc., but it’s OK to do whatever you wish to an infidel, because they are less than a believer.  I believe Jesus Christ’s story of the Samaritan pretty much summed up his views of how to treat an outsider.  The charity lesson was second to the lesson of everyone is special and a child of God.  Back then, Samaritans were looked down upon by the Jewish society.  They considered third class, outcasts, etc.  Jesus showed everyone was special, even those ordered to kill him “forgive them Father, for they know not what they do”.As to the formation of Israel.  Yes, that was pretty shady, but was dictated by the UN and not them annexing land on their own.  I agree, they never would have gotten away with it without international support.  Nevertheless, the international reasoning (not the Zionist Jew) was that was the best way to prevent this from happening again by them having their own nation and military.  However, being a Christian, it wasn’t like we didn’t expect Israel to reappear after a long hiatus, and technically it is their land, if thinking religiously.  You’re a big fan of historical “facts”, well Babylon is now Iraq, Asyria, and Jordan and essentially the modern day Palestinians.  According to history, they took back what was once theirs that Babylon, Rome, etc. took away from them more than once.  If you are religious, and Christian, you cannot deny that strip of land, including the West Bank and Gaza Strip belongs to Israel, and will belong to them again.  I happen to believe that, and happen to believe that is why the Palestinians can’t get an upper hand.Thus a conflicting view.As to the “USA being a ‘shineing example’ of Muslims living in peace with the infidels”, um, did you forget September 11, 2001?  Over three thousand innocent people died because they were infidels, and Muslims killed them by killing themselves.  Then there’s the demands for allowing Sharia Law courts in New York, San Diego, and the UK.  The killing of daughters for “honor”.  The demands for special consideration in public and private places, whether it be drivers licenses for women with burkas, or loudly “praising Allah” in airports and then suing because people don’t want to fly with these “understanding and perfectly behaved” Muslims.The thought execize was tried, and even agreed to, but didn’t end up like you enthusiastically claimed.  It was called the formation of the State of Palestine, and was why Yassir Arafat (everyone’s favorite PLO terrorist) won his Nobel Peace Prize.  The UN even recognized this new nation with its own borders, its own economy, its own Parliment, etc.  What was the first order of business when this was done and everything seemed to calm down, with what was looking like a successful cease fire and the end of the nightmare?  Oh yeah, a bunch of Palestinians kidnapped a group of Israeli soldiers and then started lobbing rockets over to Israel, this time a much shorter distance than before.But according to you, it must have been Israel’s fault.  Yep, give up a bunch of land which was acting as a protection for your citizens, force those off the land (that are your own citizens) and hand the land, houses and all, over to the Palestinians.  Oh, when everything is done, and after a few months of relative peaces, throw it all away by getting a bunch of Palestinians to kidnap a few of your soldiers and get their buddies to start bombing you.  Yeah, must be Israel’s fault.Your choice of “written history” is pretty selective.  Especially when that history is written by PLO or Hamas propeganda.Ast to there being Palestinians without a clue about Hamas.  It’s pretty hard to sneak rockets and rocket launchers into any building without being noticed.Also Israeli helecopters don’t shoot rockets into crowds of civilians.  Geez, the Hamas rhetoric again.  They do launch rockets into known weapons caches, the homes of known terrorist leaders, training centers, command centers, etc.  Unfortunately, due to their cowardice and complete disregard for the civilians, Hamas does place them in areas populated with lots of innocents; like markets, schools, mosques, right in the middle of these neighborhoods.  Which is also why I find it hard to believe these people don’t know about it.You remind me of “Bagdad Bob”, Saddam Hussein’s spoksman and chief propegandist.  In full denial of (reality and) what was about to hit him claiming full victory is theirs all the while the US forces were mere blocks away and his job is over.As to the world judging the USA by what happens on our own streets versus what is reported as happening on our own streets.  The world only sees what the liberals show them from TV shows, to movies, and a biased news media.  Of course we are misjudged by the world.  The world only gets one perverted side of a story that is grossly over-sexed, has a “big bully” left wing bias to it full of gang violence greedy politics.  However, as a general rule, you can come here and find out for yourself without the fear of getting a rocket propelled grenade up your back side just for being the nationality you are.  I can even visit Israel, and with the proper precautions have a good chance of surviving the trip.  I do know I wouldn’t last a day in Palestine, just because I was an infidel or American.  I may even be incarcerated or have my head cut off.  Israel, would allow me to leave freely like anyone else.As to Israel’s first war.  I can remember another nation that was formed by fighting Britain and other enemies for its independance.  They annexed a hell of a lot of land, pretty much the majority of the North American continent.  Some originally belonged to Britain, some Spain, some Franch (native American’s never claimed ownership), and a lot Mexico.  Nevertheless, here we are.  Yet, despite all of that, everyone tries like crazy to sneak into this great nation because it is better than where they were.I think of Israel as the Middle East’s version of the USA.  It is a free nation.  Nevertheless, freedom and Islam just will never mix.  It can’t, one must give way to the other.  Sharia Law is contrary to rights and freedom.  Which is also why I do not see Iraq as long lasting as long as Muslims run it.  Which is also why I don’t see the Palestinians having their situation made better no matter what Israel does to help or please them.  Any peace talks with any Muslim group is doomed to failure eventually.  Freedom, and individual
    rights cannot co-exist with the teachings of Islam.The only way true peace is ever going to happen in the middle east is if God himself makes it happen, and fortunately for me, I do believe that one day that will be the case.  On that day, all of Abraham’s children (Jews and Ishmaelites) will be mourning their stupidity.  Prior to that day, Israel will look like it will be conquered and destroyed.  Oddly enough, John has been dead accurate so far.Despite what you may think.  I believe people, regardless of who they are, have a right to defend themselves and their families even to death.  However, I also believe that actions have consequences.  If your actions egg on your enemy or cause them to defend their families against your actions, which you started, then my sympathies rest with who didn’t threaten or shoot first.  I also believe when a cease fire is given, the slate is cleaned as to who is the defender and who is the offender.  If one party breaks a cease fire, then they are the aggressor and deserve the consequences of their actions.So far, the Palestinians keep breaking cease fires.  It’s very hard to sympathize for them as a whole people.  Sure, they are human beings and those not participating might just want to move elsewhere to get themselves out of the madness.

  7. I don’t know why it is, but you seem to have some strange wish to believe that I place the blame on the Israelis, that I believe they are the only “bad guys”. Sometimes there are no good guys. Sometimes there are no good guys, only bad guys, and people just trying to get along. The Palestinian and Israeli people are the latter…. I’ve made it clear who I believe the former are. Everyone else.There’s some valid points to be made about religious violence, but that wasn’t actually where I was going with it. It has to do with our people, and the what our level of isolation allows us to get away with as individuals. We have Americans who support whatever terrorist cause they may believe in, some foreign some domestic. We have a government that meddles in and has been known to support or initiate conflicts with any oppressive regime that happens to be its whim of the moment. Should all Americans be held accountable for those individuals? Those individuals are guilty, free to spread their lies, and our constitution says that’s okay. Shall we be judged by that? Do we deserve to die?Back to that base doctrine, for a moment. Yes, Isalm does have that as part of its base doctrine as does Christianity and others. However, with time and civilization, people have managed to reconcile those doctrines against peace against come up with a solution where their country is not in a constant state of religious war. The United States is one. Iran is another. There will always be throwbacks, we have them in our own country. Every sick and twisted little cell of child molesting gunslinging messiah wannabes, every Timothy McVeigh who believes that their goals make the murders they commit right.As for Israel’s formation, you are mistaken. Israel declared independence in contradiction to the Mandate they were still held to, probably for that very reason – to show they would not be held by the UN’s wishes. That independence involved them taking the lands they’d been allocated under the mandate, and annexing a few others. The end of the ensuing war resulted in the Jordanians taking still more Palestinian allocated lands. Sure, the UN was instrumental in Israel retaining that independence they’d declared, but I think that any true Israeli, those that fought and died for that independence, would be insulted to have the land be considerd a “gift” from the UN. After all, those people that died in that declaration were NOT the jews of the Holocaust. There’s history, and then there’s ancient history. Pretending that ancient history dictates any sort of claims whatsoever is horrifying. It makes us victims of the whim of whatever children of whatever long-dead nation happen to still be around. Unlike those peoples of ancient Israeli history, the Palestinian Jews and Palestinian Muslims are still around. They’re the only ones with any claim to those lands…. and the Palestinian Jews got theirs, and named it Israel once more.As for 9/11, yes, we are STILL a shining example of Muslims, Christian and Jewish Americans living in peace. Guess who brought those planes down? Filthy, murdering FOREIGN terrorists. But heck, they’re Muslim, so we might as well blame the American muslims as well, right? The United Kingdom is a joke, and an embarassment to its own people. The day that Sharia law is allowed in the United States is the day… well, one really whacked up day. But then, there are retards here as well. The Constiution gives them the right to be.As for -our- roots, that’s swell. It’s great to talk about the independence we gained from Britain, but what about the people that were here first? Oh right, like the Palestinians, they don’t count. We killed them, gave the survivors reservations, and rights that we attempt to erode on a day by day basis. Swell. So what’s the difference between our Natives and the Native Palestinians? Our country grew something resembling a civilized conscience. Israel hasn’t. One point to make about Israeli rockets killing Palestinian civilians. This isn’t new, this isn’t something special that started happening in 2009. It’s been around for as long as I’ve been alive. Israel does it and blames the terrorists every time. After all, if they hadn’t fled into the crowd of civilians or a refugee camp, those people wouldn’t have died, right? To them, it is irrelevant that they fired the rocket that brought the killing blow. Hamas is to blame. Period.I think it’s interesting that you claim that the Palestinian State is a nation with the rights of sovreignty yet denied the rights of any other nation. Is it because they’re not really a nation, but merely a state, or is it because Israel refuses to acknowledge it? And if so, why? Because it makes their actions illegal? Note, again, this isn’t placing all the blame on Israel. If Palestine truly is a nation, then half their government is responsible for similar violations.As for Israel being another United States, please tell me that’s a joke. The only thing we have in common is a disgusting government who justifies their atrocities by the actions of others. We are a melting pot society (yes, we have our divisions) while Israel is a homogenous country based on notions of citizenship that would be considered racist if developed in the United States.. Due to the animal behaviour of their government, they live in fear and prosperity contingent on our support. The same, indeed. They’re simply another state on the dole.I too believe in the right of self-defense, but the difference is that I don’t believe that right is one-sided, nor do I believe that the situation in Israel is as simple as a matter of self-defense. Too much blood has been shed, too much vengeance, too much animal behaviour on both sides. They’ve gone beyond anything that could reasonably be considered self-defense.Do note that Hamas aren’t the only ones breaking ceasefires. Isarel does it too. They just “brilliantly” blame Hamas every time they do it. God forbid they actually take responsibility for their own actions, right? Break a truce and then call it a bitter fight in self-defense to the death. So much for the only lies being Palestinian ones.

  8. I did understand your position, I just don’t agree with a majority of it.  You claim the majority of Palestinians are “innocent” pawns in a Hamas tirade.  I submit you to be incorrect.  The majority of Palestinians VOTED Hamas into power in the nation of Palestine.  So I’d say your innocents are in the minority.As to foreigners in 9/11.  I used to live in San Diego, CA a place with a large number of Muslim immigrants are trafficked, in addition to South American.  Many mosques and Islamic charities (including those shown to be funded by organizations friendly to terrorism), those run by citizens, house and even help educate these new immigrants.  Normally this wouldn’t be a very big deal, but these very same organizations paid for aircraft flight training to those very terrorists you say were foreigners.I’m afraid the community protects terrorists and quietly assists them in their travels, as welll as those rare “peaceful” ones.As to ancient history and it’s claims.  This is irrelevant.  I was expressing a side thought, not any sort of a justification.The Gaza strip is the most densely populated piece of land since 2005.  Hamas chose to attack Israel first.  Being so densely populated, it makes sense there will be casualties.  Palestine is a recognized nation.  So is Israel.  Both recognized by the UN.  One attacked the other, Palestine attacked Israel.  That is an act of war.  Israel, under international law, has a right to defend itself from acts of war, by reciprocating a war to win in return.  The USA did the same with Pearl Harbor.  A war that ended with two atomic bomb detonations.I think both were justified.  Both were fighting a ruthless enemy that refused to surrender.  With Japan battles were bloody, even down to the last man on Japan’s side.  They had people turning themselves into weapons (Kamikazees).  Surrender was not in their culture, they never lost a war.  A twisted view of honor did this, not the USA.  Nevertheless, the closer the US got to Japan, the more fiercely they fought instead of surrendering in a losing battle.The Japanese would torture and murder prisoners of war because it was a new concept to them.  To surrender made you dishonorable and less than human.  Yet, their prisoners were well treated in american POW camps, including three meals a day.The two atomic bombs was a demonstration to them that Japan will be whiped off the map if they persisted.  The reality of it, finally convinced them to surrender.I see the same exact situation with Palestine and Israel.  I see Hamas’ kidnapping of Israeli soldiers, bombing of Israel’s people, and violation of the treaty when Palestine was formed mere years ago, an excellent reason for this action by Israel.  The distant and recent past is irrelevant.  Treaties were signed, territory was given, agreements were made, concessions were made, all for giving Palestine their own land and nation to which they could elect who they wanted to lead them.  They, in the end, chose Hamas.  They broke the treaty, not Israel.  They bombed and attacked Israel in violation of the treaty, not Israel.There is no excuse for Hamas’ behavior, and there is every justification for Israel’s behavior.  The US would do the same if Mexico started bombing San Diego or El Paso.  You either have citzens rioting in the streets for the government failing to protect them, or you have the government thoroughly and efficiently stop what is happening.Since Hamas is so entrenced in that nation and society (it’s even the legitimate government thanks to their own elections), the only way to fight it is to go house to house.  The only way victory against these people is going to work, is if they are totally and completely demoralized or destroyed.  I would much rather peace, if not peace, I’d much rather one surrender, if not surrender, then utter destruction is the only way to stop such futile madness.  Hopefully, more and more of the people will wise up and not have to die.  Somehow they are going to have to see that water and acid are going to have to calmly mix for any peacful future to exist.Israel has earned its right to exist, and earned its right to protect itself.  Palestine’s treaty with Israel invalidates and makes null any claims to “the past” you may bring up.As to the rest, I’m tired.  Let’s just agree to disagree.  That is our right in the USA, at least for now.   

  9. If voting murderers into power makes the people that voted them in equally culpable, then I submit that we are every bit as culpable as those Palestinians for voting Bush into power not once, but twice, resulting in the slaughter of over 70,000 Iraqis. But then… we’re not. We didn’t do it, and it’s bleedingly obvious that not all of us supported it. What about those that didn’t vote for Hamas? What about those who voted for Abbas, only to have Hamas turn on him like rabid dogs, and instigate a coup?As far as scumbags in our land, I’ve already acknowledge they exist, though I find your speculation about them assisting in 9/11 farfetched. Had they been, they’d been tossed in some place by Gitmo by laws that allow the government to do so. Speculation, unproven. 9/11 on the other hand, by all accounts, was orchestrated by… surprisingly, Saudi Al’Qaeda. Odd, but Saudi Arabia isn’t on the same page as all of its people either.I’d also like to point out that if Palestine is now the nation you claim it is, then Israel instigated an act of war by violating that treaty first. Hamas didn’t just up and start flying rockets ineffectually into Israel for no reason… they did it in retaliation for a specific act. That reason is out there, if you choose to look it up – I’ve mentioned it before. Hamas may be murderous assholes, but they’re not crazy retarded. They had a purpose. I suspect that Israel knew quite well what would happen and fully expected that when Hamas reacted the way they always do, the real reason would get lost in the shuffle. I suppose that you’ll say that it’s only propaganda and lies, right? Israel is the holy state, and would never do such a thing?You mention what the United States would do if Mexico invaded… tell me, what would the United States do if Iran sent operatives into the United States to kidnap and or kill a few targetted citizens? That’s an act of war, it would be all the excuse we needed to blow the hell out of their country. Hell, you see how Bush and company reacts over suspected weapons shipping.I find it shocking that you suggest the only available strategy is the kind that turns people into self-proclaimed martyrs and suicide bombers… completely demoralizing them. Israel already destroys homes, promotes starvation embargoes and kills Palestinians without a second thought, achieving exactly that. What’s the result? Idiots with no other alternative but to win by taking out as many people as they can with them. No wonder the whole notion of “allah will reward you” works well on them. Take away all they have left… and filth like Hamas will give them a reason to die.As I pointed out elsewhere, the situation has gone way beyond mere self-defense. That’s proven well enough by Israel provoking this situation then claiming self-defense. I realize that in this day and age, the Church of I-say-it-therefore-that-makes-it-true reigns supreme, but it’s not the truth.As for the rest, sure. Disagreed! 🙂

  10. The USA regularly goes into other nations to apprehend criminals, whether those crimes were crimes against individuals or crimes against the state.  Let’s concentrate on the latter.There are many in Gitmo right now that have been apprehended in other nations for actively planning and participating in acts of war against the USA.Implying that Israel regularly arrests Palestinians just for fun is irresponsible.  These so-called innocents are involved in terrorist activities and are active participants in the planning of terrorist acts, or participants in terrorist acts, or are harboring and aiding known terrorists, or are training or funding terrorists.  To imply they are simply innocent pawns in an Israeli conspiracy shows either complete denial of reality or an open intent to deceive.Those Palestinians in Israeli jails aren’t the innocent shop owner on his way to work.Your assumption of Bush, is misguided as well.  Congress declares war, not the President.  Congress knew what Bush knew and they (nearly all of them, both parties) declared war on Iraq, not Bush.  Iraq, if you can possibly remember, was a murderous dictator that had just recently killed over 200,000 Kurds, in his own country, with weapons of mass destruction, nerve gases.  The man was insane, but not stupid.  He killed family members, he tortured innocents, he murdered whole families, usually all surviving generations.  He ruled by fear with his Bath party followers.  I find it odd how many people cry foul when terrorists and Bath party Iraqi’s die in attacks against the coalition troops, but have no consideration for those on our side.  The Iraqi’s have freedom now, new schools, more than they ever had in their lives, a higher standard of living which continues to grow.  Yet, somehow this was a bad thing to do.  Perhaps leaving the Iraqi’s to Saddam Hussein would have been better??Your second paragraph shows no thought, it appears like a knee-jerk reaction.  You seem to forget that there were many in the FBI and CIA screaming about such things, but restrictive rules (set up by Clinton) prevented them from either collaborating or allowing lesser agents to put forward predictions of a terrorist strike, without their politically motivated department head’s approval.  The pre-9/11 climate was that of denial despite the evidence.While I do not doubt there are those “peaceful Islamic Americans” in the majority.  I must ask you how many of them have ever turned in a terrorist hiding in their midst?  They choose to keep quiet.  While it doesn’t imply guilt, it does limit my ability to trust them.  There’s something inherently wrong about trusting someone completely whose religion openly commands dictates certain behavior, contrary to freedom or US Law, under threat of death; not excommunication, not of damnation, but immediate physical death.  That same religion demands you become executioner when someone goes against Sharia law.I find that unlike other cultures and people in the world, those of the Islamic religion are a special and very threatening case.  In fact, the Declaration of Independence is a blasphemous document against Allah, according to Sharia law, because it says man was given the right to choose by God, and Allah did no such thing.Islam gives justification or “guiltless” cruel, even in humane behavior against “warned” infidels all in the name of Islam and furthering the purposes of Allah and Islam.  This is why I say your view of Palestine/Israel isn’t in its proper perspective.  To the Palestinian, their religion states there is nothing they can do against a Jew (or infidel) that Allah considers sinful, in fact it’s a duty to kill them if they refuse to embrace Islam.  To them cutting off a head is a duty, not a horrible crime, or even evil.  HOWEVER….  If something is done to a Palestinian, it’s a crime against Islam and the honor of the family and must be met with death.  Only Palestinian deaths are mourned, because a believer was killed by an infidel, a crime deserving of death.To a Palestinian, what they have done to the infidels is irrelevant and need not be discussed.  Allah will bless them.  Only the infidel has committed a criminal act.Put it this way, suppose to entered into a contract with a Muslim to build him a house.  You do it, but he doesn’t pay after urging you to convert to Islam.  To take him to court.  If Sharia, then YOU would be put in jail for falsely accusing a believer, or the case would be dismissed because you are a non-believer and the believer urged you to convert and as you refused, you forfeit the contract, and he gets a free house.Flip it around,. you contract a Muslim to build you a house.  He never does it, but keeps your money.  Your case isn’t even heard in Sharia court.  A believer cannot commit a sin against an infidel … ever.Therefore, I hardly see legitimate stories of “innocence” from the Palestinian point of view to be the whole story,  To them, a man who just kill 200 Jews that never did anything to them, is a hero.  To Israel, he’s a murderer and terrorist.  Israel.  Is Israel purposefully targeting the innocent?  No, absolutely not.  Are innocents dying yes.  Is Hamas targeting innocents?  Yes, yes, yes, it’s better to kill infidel women and childfren to greatly demoralize the infidel warriors.I still don’t see the moral ground for the Palestinian’s behavior.  I do see a legitimate reason for Israel’s response.  Israel isn’t going to kick its citizens out of the Gaza strip (some at gun point), turn it over to the Palestinians, give them a government, etc. and then suddenly waste all of their resources “kidnapping” so-called innocents.  Sorry friend, your stance (as to Israel being an aggressor) isn’t just flawed, it’s logically flawed and makes absolutely no sense.  Nope, sorry, first Hamas kidnaps an Israeli solder (and is still holding him hostage after two years), demanding tried, convicted and incarcerated terrorists be released from Israeli prisons under threat.  You also have Hamas being the first to launch weapons of destruction into Israel and killing Israeli citizens that had the misfortune of being where these RANDOM (not at a specific military target, Hamas never followed Geneva Cnv,) launches are directed.It’s the facts, and the facts show, Hamas broke the treaty, long long before Israel opened up a can of whoopass.  It was just that one rocket too many that finally woke the sleeping tiger.The main problem is Hamas is fighting based on a lie, a lie concocted by the PLO.  There’s no such thing as a “Palestinian”.  the only people in the territory of Israel were Asyrians, spread spotted and thin in a desert full of ruins and a whole lot of nothing.  What did Israel do that really really really pisses them off, and is the real reason for this?  They became prosperous and built a modern city with modern conveniences and they were still living in tents and earthen homes tending flocks just like they did for thousands of years.  They didn’t want Israel gone, they wanted what Israel had and the Jews gone.  Envy and jealousy are powerful tools.  The democrats use them all of the time to win elections.  It works equalliy well with young Asyrians with no future ahead of them except goat herder.Also, to blame Israel exclusively for everything against the “Palestinians” is also irresponsible.  Remember, Jordan Annexed the West Bank, not Israel.  Asyria originally annexed the Gaza Strip, not Israel.  In fact, nearly all of the land the UN set aside for the “Palestinians” to have their own nation, were all annexed by the surrounding nations, not Israel.  Yet, the PLO’s own propeganda campaign has convinced these Asyrians that they are “Palestinians” and that Is
    rael took away their lands (not really, they were roaming nomads at the time).  When in fact, the Jews were the first to permanently settle (as in live in one place all of the time with a house and land) for hundreds of years,You see, both sides are full of crap.  No, I don’t think God gave the Jews their lands back.  I believe they took it back.  Yes, I do believe a bunch of Jews showing up on open land your family has been using for open grazing for hundreds of years would kind of piss me off.  No, however, was anyone kicked out of there homes at the formation of Israel.  All of the Asyrians were traveling nomads, who travelled and traded based on the seasons.So basically all of this isn’t about stealing land, it’s about Jews moving into Arab Harlem.  Essentially.

  11. Sadly, this situation is a self-feeding cycle of violence.  Yes, the Palestinians lobbing rockets are to blame.  However you need to accept that the Israelis that bulldoze homes with children in them, drop bombs and recreate a Palestinian version of the Warsaw Ghetto are equally to blame.  NOBODY is innocent in this issue other than the children who are dying – on BOTH SIDES.
    There has been such uneven news coverage of the issue that was always in favor of Israel for so many years and that pendulum is now swinging closer to a pro-Palestinian news environment.  Until recently,  people rarely heard of Palestinian children being buried in their homes by Israeli bulldozers but they heard every injury of an Israeli child hurt by the unrest.  Until recently, fighters in Palestine were referred to as “terrorists” and Israelis as”soldiers” – never was it acknowledged that the situation was civil war with both sides having legitimate reasons to fight.
    Look at the settlement of Ma’ale Adumim – it has been declared illegal by international courts but still exists.   The bedouins that live on the other side of the wall used to graze sheep there.   You can say they didn’t have houses but they did (they were truly on semi-nomadic and many had permanent homes before 48.)  Even recently, the Bedouins have tried to build homes – on their side of the wall – only to have the Israelis bulldoze them because they didn’t have the right permits.  House permits are almost impossible for Palestinians to get from the Israeli government.  when you destroy a person’s home and force them to live in squallor and tents – you are continuing the hate.
    It is easy for us to sit back and blog about how people should just lay down their weapons. However, I know that many of the people in this country (the USA) would NEVER simply give up and walk away if they percieved America as being invaded.  If the Us was invaded – we would fight until the end.  We wouldn’t allow ourselves to be forced into a small strip of land and walled in.  We wouldn’t simply accept the fact that there is no food, power or clean water in our ghetto.  We wouldn’t let our mothers, children, sisters, brothers, fathers and lovers be killed.  We would fight.   Hell, look what happen when the Brits changed our tax code to pay for the army that we had protecting us in the 18th century.  We didn’t care that taxes were actually LOWERED – we determined them to be “Intolerable” and proceeded to commit our own terrorist actions.
     

  12. I beg to differ on your view of the news media’s bias.  In fact, it’s quite th opposite.  Frequently, you see Hamas and terrorists referred to as “freedom fighters” instead of simply terrorists.  They already have their own nation, have their own freedom.  That is not what they are trying to do.The news media, as a group, is a liberal bunch, and the reporting of Israel in any positive light would be like MSNBC endorsing Sarah Palin.  Unfortunately, the news media, especially the BBC, tends to report in favor of Hamas all of the time.  They are always there with a camara to show the devestation of an Israeli retaliation, but never ever show what fuelded that retaliation.  There’s no showing of the dead and mamed Israeli’s just trying to go to work and living their lives.  It is a rare case, other than in a gun fight, and Israeli soldier dies from a Hamas rocket attack.  It’s always civilians and civilian targets.  Yet, somehow the military targets of Hamas (carefully placed in populated areas or in or near schools) that gets reported.International courts have no say nor authority in matters of desputed territory, and are courts of zero official authority.  “International Courts” are no more than propeganda to serve one side or the other.  The only time an “International Court” has authority is if both parties agree to abide by it.  Hence the term “soveriegn nation”.  The USA does not participate nor obey international courts either, as well as a majority of nations.  If a majority of nations do not like the behavior of another, they sanction them via the UN, or attack them if the actions are severe enough to warrant.  However, unless there’s a treaty enforcing the authority of a so-called “international court”, what they say is meaningless and is unenforceable.As to permits to build a home.  If a group of people has a known history of building a home or other building and then using it as a means to promote, train, or faxcilitate in the deaths of your citizens either by suicide bomb, lobbing rockets or similar ordinance over the wall, etc., then I can understand why such permits are next to impossible.  Notice how hard it is to just fly today?  It isn’t because a certain faction of Muslims are trustworthy.  The same goes for an Asyrian (that calls themselves a “Palestinian”) that wants to build a house.Keep in mind Israel destroyed their own citizens homes, and forced many Jews out at gun point, on the Gaza strip when they turned over that whole strip of land to the “Palestinians” in hopes for a peace they promised Israel, but never honored.  There’s a logical reason for Israel’s behavior.  I can’t feel sorry for a people that through their own actions, and even some inactions (failure to report terrorists etc.), caused the consequences of their actions.  They elected Hamas to their government.Yes, it’s sad for people to have to live in tents and such, and perhaps specific people have done nothing wrong, but you have to admit, as a whole, they are reaping the consequences of their behavior.  If the Palestinians want peace, then help Israel to irradicate these Hamas jackasses.  Run them out of town and never allow them to return.  If they worked with Israel, instead of bombing them, I’m sure Israel would be much better behaved as to how their military deals with them.The idea the Israeli’s invaded anyone’s land is misguided.  The entire area was essentially desert, unused land nobody wanted full of ruins and goats.  The idea that Israel claimed someone else’s settled land is a bit embellished.  Most of the Asyrians …errr… Palestinians never even lived there.  A great majority of them were nomads that traveled all over based on the season.  The only time the Asyrians / Palestinians actually started settling down in one area was AFTER Israel declared Independance.The Arab – Israeli war wasn’t because of the specific land they were on, it was Jews living in the midst of previously empty Arab lands.  Which is the same as a bunch of very white people coming in and building a large snooty apartment highrise on an empty lot in Harlem.  It’s not like anyone was using the lot, it’s the fact of a bunch of white people moving into the “hood”.  Sparks would fly.Considering that Mohammed said Jews are even lower than the infidel, it doesn’t make things any better.Your knowledge of the American revolution is one-sided.  It wasn’t the taxes themselves and their specific amounts.  It was they as British citizens had no say in any issue affecting them.  They had no representation.  It literally was tyranny they were fighting, not the taxes specifically or their amounts.  It was not having a voice in the actions and policies taken by the British government that pissed them off.  It was also the fact that British fat cats would confiscate lands and property for their own pleasure and the populace that worked hard for that land had no say or recourse of action against them as the governor’s word was law, and Parliment (without their representatives) would arbitrarily make edicts which did cause them to pay considerably more taxes than a normal British citizen living on Great Britain.By the way, there are independant nations in the USA.  They are called “Indian Reservations”.  We haven’t attacked them in well over a hundred years, if I remember correctly.The point of my entire article, which has been lost in this flood of propeganda and whining, is whether a soveriegn nation has the right to defend itself from an enemy that just doesn’t ever stop, no matter if you make a treaty with them, give them what they ask for etc.  They just keep bombing and bombing.  Frankly, I think Israel has shown superhuman restraint in the past when they had perfect right to do then what they are doing now.What you see now is the end result of Jimmy Carter’s and Yassir Arafat’s Nobel “Peace” Prize.  Isn’t their resulting “peace” just wonderful?War is horrible.  It’s terrible.  The worst about it is innocents, especially children end up dying in the fire.  However, when you have exhausted every means, given up vast plots of land (the same as the USA turning over the Pacific Northwest), helped them set up a government of THEIR own choosing, and all they asked in return was peace.  The freedom from being bombed every day.  What you get is the last resort, and that’s all out war.  This isn’t a police action, nor a peace-keeping force.  This is real war.  This is something the western world hasn’t seen since World War II.  WE had to bomb Germany into the stone age to finally get them to surrender.  We had to bomb and demonstrate to Japan they were not only going to lose, but become extinct if they didn’t stop.This war is Israel’s right.  War is bloody and to individuals, it’s unfair.  I’d rather have a world without war.  Nevertheless, as long as there are people refusing to respect the God given rights of others to life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness, regardless of religion, or race, then we will always have war.I have nothing but pity for a man who only has anger to fuel him, especially if that anger has roots in a lie.  Everyone, Hamas, and Israeli’s have had friends or family killed over the years.  It’s understandable that some can snap in anger, but as a whole.  I support Israel in their defense.Do I think this will ever truly end?  Not until one side no longer exists, frankly.  Israel is dealing essentially with fenatical “ants” that just keep coming and coming that have no desire in their minds for living in peace.  Their only purpose for you is your extermination.  For me, it puts a lot into perspective.  You can’t negotiate with someone whos only purpose and desire is to make you d
    ead.Compassion should always be present, I would hope that as a majority, Israeli’s have compassion for their enemy.  However, it’s hard when that compassion is one-sided.  It’s a sin to show compassion to an enemy to Islam, by the way.Thank you for having compassion yourself.  The world always needs it.  Perhaps those with enough compassion can cause a miracle to happen.  The odds are against your though.

  13. Notice how Palestinian Muslims living “peacefully” here in the USA have staged a demonstration in Washington shouting “Israel, go back to your ovens!”Nazi’s killed millions of Jews in ovens back during World War II.Oh yeah, they are really building my compassion for them.Sick

  14. Palestinian Muslims here in the USA aren’t the ones you need to have compassion for. It’s the civilians and the children that actually live in those countries, be they Israel or Palestine.Abominable, certainly, but that IS the price of freedom of speech here in the USA. For every “peaceable” Muslim shouting “go back to your ovens”, you have KKK members preaching against black people, “good” Christians like Westboro screaming “Die homos die” (putting it politely), and the staple filth presented by the most extreme pro-lifers. We could even give certain racist/terrorist American Jewish groups a mention here, but I think the point is made.Heck, it’s that same great freedom of speech that allows ISRAELI people to criticize their own government’s treatment of the Palestinians. Or on the other side of the token, write “Gas the Arabs” on a Palestinian door. Yeah, that’s great sensitivity to their own people.

  15. (Compassion, children, etc.) Yes, and I thought I made clear.  Nevertheless, it is Hamas that is purposefully putting women and children in harms way.  Purposefully placing weapons caches in the basements of schools.  Purposefully launching rockets off the roofs of areas where the innocent gather.  It is not Israel, who has no choice but to bomb the location to stop the constant launches from the site.  It is Hamas whose fault it is that the innocents died, because it was their intention to do so.Hamas knows how to play the international media.  They also know the best propeganda is dead children.  You’re dillusional if you think Israel actively seeks out schools to bomb.  They know what the international reaction is.  Like I said, this fight is Hamas’ fault plain and simple.  If any children die because their school also happens to double as a weapons cache or launch platform, it’s Hamas’ fault when it gets leveled by Israel.Your freedom of speach issue bears no relavance.  Nobody said they didn’t have the right to say what they said.  The fact they chose those specific words illustrated my point in their disinterest in peace, but instead are more interested in the genocide of Israel.Those “Christians” you mentioned are just like those of the dark ages I mentioned.  Jesus never did such a thing, nor did he ever endorse such detestable behavior.  HE said love everyone, especially the sinners.  Remember the “he who is without sin” account in the Bible?  No, those people’s behavior towards gay people is not Christian.  Gays have a right to choose to obey God or not, in peace.  This isn’t tolerance, it’s understanding that God is the judge not you.As to pro-lifers.  The minority I would consider no better than the Doctors they are trying to stop.  Nevertheless, one is not trying to limit rights, but instead save a life.  The lie is the “rights” part of it.  The woman had the right to not choose to have sex.  She had the right to say no, knowing the consequences.  That is where a woman’s right to choose always existed.  Just because science finds a new way to kill a human being does not suddenly make it a woman’s “right”.  The “choice” is made at conception not mid-term.  The term “choice” or in fact, “pro-choice” is a lie.  It’s more “pro-change you mind”, or “pro-get out of consequences of actions” which are more accurate.  There’s a reason why God says no pre-marital sex.  It leads to a bastard pregnancy, which leads to a lifetime of greater responsibility of perhaps only a single parent, etc. etc.  It’s not some control kick to get a man to keep it in his pants or a woman to keep her legs shut.  It’s messing with powers that should only be messed with in a marriage.  There are logical reasons for any commandment, and all are designed to protect us.As to your point being made, no it isn’t.  You’ll find Christian, Jewish, and even Bhuddist groups decrying such behavior.  I have NEVER EVER heard of Muslim groups decrying or PUBLICLY rejecting the bad behavior of any of these radical groups.  Why?  It’s the religion.  You cannot publicly ridicule another Muslim, no matter how nuts they may be.This is why this situation is unique and very hard for the average westerner, without this perspective, to grasp.You always try to blame the Jews for being interlopers there.  Well here’s a bit of condensed history:The Jews have been in that area for nearly 5000 years, then after Rome destroyed it (after Christ) and scattered or killed most of them, essentially ejecting them, then Christians came or remained and held Jerusalem for quite a long time.  More than 600 years passed and this new group, called Muslims appeared and were on a successful conquering spree being successful everywhere they went.  They decided to move west and eject the Christians.  Thjus resulting in the Crusades (it was a defensive measure for the Christians), a quite brutal and bloody war, on both sides.  The war was mostly lost, nevertheless, and now the Muslims held the land, for quite a long time.  Then once upon a time, another interloping and imperial nation came along, and tried to exercize some authority.  This was the UK (who through excellent geneology, though controversial, claims their Monarchy decends from King David himself).  Through this time, some Jews have returned and were basically living peacefully with the Palestinian nomads (then called “Asyrians”).Then comes WWII, and a lot of refugees end up in the territory.  Many are quite overzealous in wanting an independant Israel, but it’s not particularly violent. At this point the two peoples are still living relatively peaceful together.Then comes Israel, and the surrounding nations are a bit pissed.  Well, the UN not only gave some land to Israel, but also set aside land for the Palestinians.  These other nations instantly annex the Palestinian land and “promise” them they will give it back when they erradicate the Jews, and will also give the Palestinians the “spoils” of the war.  Hey!  What a deal!So all of the surrounding Arab nations attack Israel.  Israel kicks their ass, and soundly cleans their clock.  Big problem, the Arab nations like Jordan and Syria don’t give the Palestinians back their land.  The Palestinians get mad.  The other Arab nations say the promise was for when Israel was destoyed.  It’s not, so they see a second attempt to attack Israel, not as many nations participate this time, but Israel kicks their asses again, and even annexes the land Jordan and Syria annexed before.  They did it for protection.  However, the Palestinians still haven’t got what the other Arab nations promised, and now what what once theirs free and clear, with Israel’s blessing and UN agreement, before these wars, is now in the hands of Israel.Along comes Yassir Arafat during that latter part of this, and decides to take things in his own hands.  He’s going to get rid of Israel himself.  So he gets impressionable young men, teaches them an alternate history blaming their situation on Israel and not the where it really belongs, their closest Arab neighbors.  Much crap and blood ensues, then comes Jimmy Carter and he legitimizes the group and their false history, and then things are as their are today.What do I see?  Palestinians who got screwed by their own brothers and Israel getting the blame for it all.  Saying Israel has not right to exist, also means you have to say Egypt has no right to exist.  Their histories are strikingly parallel, especially when it comes to Roman occupation.The facts are, the Jews and PAlestinians did live together peacefully.  It was the other Arab nations that caused the problem in the first place.  Why?  The Palestinians were making great progress and money with Israel, and this threatened the the authority of the surrounding Arab monarchs.  The Palestinians made a deal with the devil, so to speak, and are now getting the consequences of it.  It sucks, it totally sucks, but most of them are too young now to know the real history.  All they know is what the PLO, Hezbula, or Hamas have taught them over the years.  By the way, ask yourself who funds these groups….Also, every group, good or bad, has their own group of “rednecks” in it that take things way too far.  That, I agree with you 100%.

  16. You seem to have completely missed the point I was making in reply to your post. You mention those Muslim protestors here in the USA as if they have any relevance to the Muslim civilians who are actually dying over there. That was -my- point. Not relevant. I’ve never stated that Israel actively seeks out schools, hospitals or the like to bomb. What I do state (since I probably havne’t made it clear enough) is that they simply do. not. care. They’re as bad as we (USA) are about killing civilians. And quite frankly, while that’s not as bad as outright genocidal intent? It’s still an atrocity, when you consider they have alternatives. They have our unconditional support, one of the world’s top militaries and funding to match, and what is lauded as the world’s best intelligence agency. Yet their only alternative is to bomb the hell out of things like an American? Obviously not, yet they do anyway, because they do not care. They’ll shed tears about how Hamas rockets destroy all this property and kill a couple civilians, but those Palestinian lives are worthless.You constantly talk about their propaganda, but never mention Israel’s. Why is that? Do you really believe that they’d never do such a thing, despite regular reactions to the contrary? They have one propaganda they use regularly and with force, and it’s proven in your reply to me. You say “You always blame the Jews”. I do no such thing. Israel is not the Jews. Israel is a nation unto itself, made up of nearly 20% Muslims. When I blame Israel, I’m not blaming the Jews. Yet any criticism against Israel is automatically returned with fire about racism, one of the most nasty verbal tools you can levy against anyone in this day and age. It doesn’t even matter if it’s true – if someone says you did it, you must defend yourself, and you will not get the benefit of the doubt if you blow it off as the outright garbage that it is. And of course since Holocaust! Holocaust! any criticism of the Israel is automatically perceived as an attack on the Jews, the attack becomes three times as effective. And you talk about how there is no Muslim outcry against what they  do to Israel, but Christians, Jews and others do.Tell me – what exactly HAS been done to Israel? Israel is a successful and powerful nation, and not solely by it’s own efforts. Even in the beginning, they were successful – founding a nation despite outsiders, losing no more than any other nation would in such an effort. Amazing success in the form of the six-day war. Every now and then some Israeli civilians will be killed, or soldiers kidnapped or killed while being in places they’ve occupied, but what has been DONE to Israel? Nothing but a lot of talk.It’s that talk that raises the outcry. Poor Israel, people talking about genocide against them. The OUTRAGE should be there, right? After all, they’re victims (holocaust holocaust, whether they were in it or not) of hate. Oh wait, that hate exists everywhere else in the world too, against everyone. Yet it’s outrageous for any other country to voice it. Only democracies with freedom of speech are allowed, right?Ridiculous. It’s overreaction. The Holocaust was an outrage. Indiscriminate slaughter of Israel, Palestinian or Iraqi  civilians is an outrage. And yet, who is it that’s dying regularly? Right.It’s frustrating that you insist I always blame Israel when I’ve clearly done no such thing. This is a cycle. Cycles cannot only be blamed upon one side. The role of the outsiders and the extremists in this is clear. Blame where it is due.It’s also interesting that you’ve seen fit to quote back the very history I mentioned to you earlier in this thread, as if I somehow left it out and held them unaccountable.  It -was- a shady deal, yes. Those nations are every bit as greedy and opportunistic as Israel. To suggest they were not is dishonest. That they are somehow defending the Palestinian people is laughable.As I pointed out before, no nation has a right to exist.The United States has no right to exist.Russia has no right to exist.Iran, Jordan and Syria have no right to exist.Palestine has no right to exist.Israel has no right to exist.To suggest that any nation has a right to exist is a terrible joke, a ridiculous assertion that we are somehow intrinsicly guaranteed nationhood forever. The Palestinians have no “deal” with the outsiders that hasn’t existed since before Irael was born. Yet they’ll never be told about how they keep getting screwed over. Why? Because the outsiders don’t care and because Israel finds it politically convenient. Much easier to villianize a people when you make no attempt to educate them, right?

  17. [this is good] Thank you for showing what it means to be an American and having the freedom to express ones views and opinions without fear.I know you will most heartedly agree that we disagree.  Despite that fact, and the fact we are both very passionate about each other’s views, I will whole heartedly and with sincerity and fervor, defend your right to express yourself and believe what you choose to believe.  It’s what it means to be a real American.I believe it is every free person’s duty and responsibility to defend their “neighbor’s” right to live free and in the method they deem appropriate, as well as their own freedoms and rights.  I have no respect for individuals who refuse to defend freedom, those God given freedoms of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness as their conscience defines it.So, while we tend to agree to disagree on this topic of Israel and Palestine, I do respect your right to feel that way.  Just because I may feel your views are incorrect, doesn’t mean they have any less meaning and importance than my own.  You stuck to your guns, and that’s what persistence of belief is all about.Keep up the good work.

  18. Thanks, and I do appreciate the positive feedback. There’s two little of it these days, too much of the me vs. you mentality out there. I can’t tell you how much partisanship and ideological tunnel-vision irritates me without going into an extended, drawn out, and probably pointless diatribe.And thanks for helping to maintain a sense of…. decorum? in this conversation. I recognize the issue to be a highly emotional one, and I am as guilty as others of failing to maintain polite discussion on more than one occasion. Too often I let the usual attacks like ‘anti-semite’ or ‘conservative/liberal nutjob’ bait me into lowering myself to the same level.It’s nice to have a discussion that doesn’t degenerate into that even if there are points of tension and contention. Thanks for helping keep the discussion on that level… it makes the overall effort feel worthwhile even when people don’t end up seeing things my way.

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