What Do You Do When The Guy Across the Negotiating Table Wants to Destroy You?

6 Responses to “What Do You Do When The Guy Across the Negotiating Table Wants to Destroy You?”

  1. The answer is simple.Stop negotiating with the guy on the other side of the table and start negotiating with everyone else. And make sure it’s negotiating when you do it, not setting down ridiculous conditions that you know can’t be met.

  2. Meanwhile, the other guy is still launching rockets into your territory and citizens, while you’re chatting with people that have their own political interests in mind, and let’s face it, have no clue about how serious the other guy is about your destruction.When someone commits an overt act of war against you, you don’t need everyone else’s permission to defend against it, even if that defense is an all out offensive designed to eradicate the pests.  Pests with which it is policy to make their strategic military targets (places where they store weapons) places where children are schooled or playing.  Nothing brings better PR than dead children.  This strategy is purposefully done as they have realized the liberal media eats this up.In fact, it is part of the UN charter that claims any sovereign nation has the right to defend itself without the need of UN permission.  Permission is inferred.

  3. Why on earth is it that you believe more than one thing cannot be done at once? Reject the presence of someone who has shown they are unwilling to compromise, and deal with everyone else. While that might sound like some kind of political intrigue, it’s nothing new. The point is that you don’t chat with the people that have no clue. You chat with the people that are part and parcel of the issue. The Palestinians, and the leaders that aren’t out to smite you from the face of the earth. Instead of proving Hamas right, treat them like people worthy of life and golly gee, you might just convince them you aren’t the devil after all.Of course it’s a deliberate strategy. You know it, I know it. Why doesn’t Israel? Oh wait, they do, and they don’t care. They don’t give a damn about the lives of those children. And that’s why, despite all this talk about talking, I don’t honestly believe Israel will make any effort to do so. They’re too caught up in their own victim mentality. Otherwise they could simply make use of the awesome resources they have at their disposal (ours and theirs) to take out every single one of those Hamas rocket-firing sites with ease.That’s one question for Israel. How the fuck have they not achieved this? We blew out Iraq’s infrastructure and defenses in just a couple of weeks. And the difference between Iraq and Palestine is embarassingly huge. Why isn’t every single one of those rocket firing sites a pile of dust, when they’ve shown they do not care a lick about the people around them? Because it serves their purposes.And  do note that I’m talking  about the Israeli  -government-. Why?Because not even all the Israeli people buy their government’s propaganda. That’s right… you don’t have to be a Muslim (despite the fact that 20% of Israel’s population) to disagree with their government’s ridiculous and hysterical behaviour. You can even be… *gasp* Jewish. Gee, you’d almost think they were just another nation of diverse peoples, like the USA.

  4. Nobody said to not negotiate, nor to not take ideas from others.  However, as I have said before, talking to the Palestinians isn’t as easy as you claim it to be, nor is Hamas as separate from the Palestinians as a whole either.  Hamas was put into the position to represent the Palestinians by the Palestinians themselves.  It was called an election.  Who else do you talk to, than the ones chosen by the people to govern over them?  Do you speak to Akim at the 7-11 and expect him to have any clout in the community?How do you negotiate peace or even a cease fire when 100% of the time, the Palestinians have used these periods to re-arm and repopulate their armies to be strategically better at bombing Israel when they decide to break the cease fire?  It’s like the “Boy Who Cried ‘Wolf!'” story.  Sooner or later, nobody is going to believe your story.  How do you even attempt to believe a people that have lied to you for decades?At no time have the Palestinians kept ANY promises they have made, not just to Israel, but to the international community.  NEVER EVER.  How many times has Israel done the bidding of the international community in hopes of peace.  MANY MANY TIMES.  The Gaza strip itself is testament to that.True Israel could take out Hamas if they wanted to.  Why aren’t they?  It’s the international community that constantly tells them not to.  Constantly promises them peace if they just waited a little longer, or threatens them with sanctions or some other political ploy.  Israel has been the only nation in history not allowed to defend itself without international approval and scrutiny.Geez, you talk about propeganda?  If I hired Hamas to be my PR agency, I’d have beat Obama in the election!  More BS has come through news agencies out of Palestine than anywhere else except maybe Bagdad Bob.  Recently, they got caught lying red-handed and of course the liberal media sweeps it under the rug.  Many times have they actually brought dead bodies to a bombing site to sweaten the news story.  I’ve seen the same dead child for three different bombing sites!You use Iraq as a comparison to Palestine.  This is incorrect.  The only people that loved Saddam were those in the Bath party.  Everyone feared and hated the man.Palestinians voted for their oppressors in a fair and open election watched over by the international community.  They were a people under oppression by any means.  In fact, the Gaza strip was becoming quite the place to travel to.  They had their own nation now, the ability and freedom to vote for who they wanted to govern them, and they chose, of their own free will, a bunch of rich butchers who have every intent to destroy their new peace and new nation.These own people’s religion REQUIRES them to irradicate the Jews.  Good or bad, all Jews.  To go against the Quran is to go against Allah, no matter how “peaceful” you are.  This is why the other Palestinians don’t speak out against Hamas.  To do so would bring a death sentence on your own head and quite possibly your family’s.  The delemma isn’t Hamas, it’s whether to speak against Hamas without speaking against the Quran, which Hamas has on their side of the argument.I thought Newt’s article said it quite well.I don’t think both sides are innocent in this war.  The problem still is coming from Palestine.  Even if Israel and Palestine were both innocent with halos over their heads, I’m afraid Palestine’s halo was the first to crack.  They allowed a bunch of thugs to come in and take over and did nothing about it.How do you fight a culture where even the death of children is considered a heroic act, even a martre’s act?  The children aren’t put there accidentally when the bombs fall.  It’s all planned.  It’s sick, and I’m not talking about those that bombed them.As to Israel, in every war both sides have their rogues or criminals.  However, as a whole, Israel is fighting a war that Hamas started and a war Israel has a right to fight until either Hamas unconditionally surrenders or Israel deems enough on their own.  Any other method is icing on the cake, but not required.You mentioned Iraq.  Personally?  I think we are having this problem now because of the arm-chair meddling of the international community.  We should have bombed all of the places the enemy was holed up, be it school, mosque, ancient castle, etc.  Seriously, I think more innocents die because of international interference prolonging a conflict, then just letting them finish the job.Now, back to the original question of this post.  You said, talk to the others.  Well, my friend, Israel has been listening to others for decades and it has got them nowhere.  They have done everything the “others” have asked them to do, even give up the entire Gaza strip, a very politically damaging move for the their government to do with their own people.  They handed the land over to the Palestinians and handed them the key.  The Palestinians moved in and brought their Hamas buddies with them and promptly started launching rockets at the people who just did what everyone told them to do.  A people that showed by their actions they wanted peace and what did the Palestinians do?  They launched rockets at them.There isn’t anything you could explain to me that justifies Palestines’ actions now, especially after all of that.  This is my reasoning for why I feel Israel’s actions are completely justified.  The phrase “fool me once.  Shame on you.  Fool me twice.  Shame on me.”  Israel has been fooled way too many times.What more was Israel supposed to do?  They have done everything asked of them by the international community, including Palestine itself.You wouldn’t know the truth if it fell out of the sky, landed on your face, and started to wiggle.  You’ve been fed a lot of FUD which you have gobbled up hook line and sinker.

  5. Yeah. Let’s pretend that elections really are about equal say. Let’s pretend that elections mean anything in a country overrun by violent terrorists who have the threat of death at their hands. Let’s pretend it’s exactly like an American election, where they just voted in good old Uncle Jamal, who happens to hate the jews like any good Palestinian. Islam doesn’t force them to do anything… we’ve two countries that prove that. Israel and the USA. Islam won’t kill them, but Islamist extremists like Hamas will. What’re they supposed to do, die for the Israelis who don’t care about them?Let’s not. What you have here is people stuck between an immovable rock and an unstoppable rock, one of which they have to live with.You pretend that negotiating with a people is all about sitting down with them at a table. You act like Hamas is the only voice in Palestine. It’s not, just the loudest, and most dangerous. I wonder, what would happen if Israel were to use their world premiere intel-agency to infiltrate Palestine, and make an effort to befriend the Palestinian people rather than killing them? If they used the amazing forces of power at their disposal to perform surgical strikes on those locations?  If they started using that propaganda to enlist detractors rather than to attack them? Do you think the Palesinians might be more sympathetic if their families weren’t dying? The pretense that there is one and only one solution is blind to an unbelievable degree. They have the resources and will not use them. You say the international community tells them not to, so they don’t. That’s bogus, and you know that. They’ve said it themselves, it’s a war to the bitter end. Yet they won’t do it? Are they just lying then? Talking out their back end? What’s stopping them from doing whatever they want? Our good opinon? Please, they have the USA’s unconditional support, and anyone who speaks up against them is antisemitic.Honestly, you even admit that they’re not necessarily angels in this. Yet you act like I’m making heroes out of people that are clearly terrorists, like Israel only ever kills evil terrorists.  The truth is that there are no -really- good guys in this, only victims of the bad guys in charge. There are innocents dying for terrorists who will not stop and a government who does not care. If the Israeli government believed what they claimed to, Hamas would be castrated, and in the process of being eliminated by the superior forces of two nations. Remember those outsiders, interfering? They don’t care. Lock them out and deal with Hamas. Negotiate with everyone else. Kill the scum and leave the rest alone.As far as Iraq goes, we have the problems we do because our government is a failure. I mean hell, we removed their regime in two weeks, blew out their infrastructure in a month. If we did what you suggested, they wouldn’t even have a government now, because we’d have been forced to kill all the resulting insurgents who we just declared a holy war on. We have the problems we have now because of a complete lack of sense. Oh gee, people are shipping in weapons and reinforcements from Iran? Why the heck are outsiders getting in? Could it have something to do with…. hmmm, borders? Yeah, we cared so much about world opinion that we invaded despite huge protests. Israel is clearly talking to the wrong people. Forget the lame cease-fire crap. Enlist the Palestinians instead of pissing them off by killing them. Back up the portion of the government that Hamas initiated a coup against. You know THOSE people, instead of international folks in the UN. The UN doesn’t have to live there. Israel doesn’t even follow their demands if they don’t feel its in their interest. Why not follow the US’s lead, and enjoy the benefits of not being bound by the same constraints?Because they don’t care. The Palestinians can die with the rest of them.As for Hamas, this war predates Hamas by 40 years and Israel itself by a couple. The first blows were struck by jewish and arabian terrorists before the Israelis declared independence, and has been going on ever since, thanks in no small part to interference by outsiders.The truth is that Isreal doesn’t care about the Palestinians and won’t until they have to. Maybe someday soon, they’ll get lucky and have leadership that doesn’t suck. After all, not even all the Israelis agree with their government.Not that you care about the truth. After all, you’re spouting that stuff about them bending over backwards and doing everything they’ve been asked as if they’re blameless angels devoid of sin, being exploited by the world at large. Puhlease.

  6. Your replies would make perfect sense in a normal western situation.  Your justifications, accusations, and even delusions about the innocent caught in the middle of a very heated conflict would make perfect sense in … let’s say … Columbia or Honduras, even Germany and France.  Most of your arguments would hold water and even if incorrect, would have a basis in common sense.The problem here is that western common sense doesn’t apply here, neither does the typical measurements of innocence versus guilt.  The rules of morality and responsibility are also in conflict here.  It is much like the USA/Japan conflict.  The behavior and beliefs of Japan in war time was completely foreign and even barbaric to see and witness to the average American.Much the same thing is happening in Israel and Palestine.  The biggest problem here is the one-sided morality of Palestine and their core religion of Islam.  A Jihad literally means nothing you do to the enemy is wrong, and everything the enemy does to you justifies annihilation or complete submission to “the only true religion of Islam”.  There is no other side.  There is no other point of view.  To suggest a people that embraces and claims to follow Islam would condemn a Muslim (or group of them) fighting a Jihad via a Fatwah from more than one Mullah, is to commit the ultimate sin against Allah and Islam.  The freedom of opinion or choice does not exist in Islam.  There is no such concept.  The only ones allowed discussion of doctrine are the Mullahs and Sharia judges, and even then with only the greatest respect and avoidance of “toe stepping” of all the parties involved.  Most of the words are fluff praising the amount of obedience of the others involved.  It makes Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid look humble.To even suggest the ability to distinguish between Hamas and the “innocent Palestinian” is completely preposterous!  You do not betray another Muslim.  It’s the law.  If you do, you DIE.  The thought of being able to just go in and be able to see who is Hamas and who is not is absurd.  They look the same.  They dress the same, and nearly all of the male adults carry some sort of weapon.  Some may be for defense, but how do you tell?Also, when Palestine was formed, nearly 40 years late, thanks to the other Arab nations, by the way, they had an empty slate.  They could just as easily asked for Israel’s assistance in eradicating Hamas before Hamas got a foot hold.  Sure, Israeli’s would have had trouble pulling their jaws off the floor after such a request, but they would have done so with Palestine’s blessing and guidance.  Nope, isolation was their downfall, not to mention Islam.  I’m not saying such a request would have been bordering on miracle,but nevertheless the problem could have been solved before it started.Your insistence of traveling far back in time always chooses to ignore the group of people that betrayed the Palestinians, and it wasn’t the Jews.  Before Israel, the Palestinians were no better off than they are now.  The UN’s original intent, when choosing to recognize Israel was to do so only if the locals (then called Asyrians of Palestine) got their own nation as well.  The boundaries of both nations were peacefully agreed upon by both peoples.  What prevented the nation of Palestine from coming into reality was the surrounding Arab nations in fear of losing their power.  They made a deal with the Palestinians by saying they’ll eradicate the Jews, and Palestine can have the entire territory, including the spoils of the war to themselves.  However, they needed to annex their alloted land to do it.  Wow, for a people that was, for hundreds of years, nomadic, being rich with your own land sounded good.  They agreed.The problem is, the Arabs tried twice to get rid of Israel and twice they had their asses handed to them.  The Jordanians even annexed the West Bank, not originally part of the deal, in the process of losing the war.  When the Palestinians wanted their land back, the Arabs said the deal isn’t done and the Jews are still there, therefore we will keep the land for their protection.  They successfully kept blaming the Jews for their problems, and it worked.If you ask me, it wasn’t Israel that screwed the Palestinians.  They made a deal with the devil, their so-called Arab brothers, and got soundly screwed by the deal when things didn’t turn out as they had hoped.  This was no longer the glory days of the Sultans that swept across the land conquering lands and kingdoms (including Israel of old from the Christians) with fear and blood in their wake.Incidentally no nation fighting another nation in a defensive war has to follow the directions of the UN.  Typically the other nation isn’t either, by the way.  Where’s Palestine’s and Hamas’ obedience to the UN in this???Your opinion of Iraq is flawed because we have TWO historical examples of how despite the absolutely complete destruction of a nation’s infrastructure, it can be restored to strength and greatness.Germany is the first example.  The world made the mistake in the first World War of punishing Germany even after the war was over.  Such behavior bread resentment in people like Adolf Hitler.  The Allies, in the second war, completely destroyed Germany’s infrastructure and government, literally to rubble.  The allies, after unconditional surrender of Germany, helped Germany not only rebuild, but also helped them form a free government.  Germany today happens to be an economically strong and competitive nation despite being ultimately destroyed.Japan is the second example.  To say we didn’t leave much of Japan in rubble would be an understatement, and to even suggest their government is the same would be crazy.  Douglas MacArthur recognized the importance of the Emperor to the People, despite knowing he was responsible for Pearl Harbor and the Pacific war itself.  So he turned what people once thought a God into a spokesman for reform, freedom, and change.  Factories, churches, schools, temples, roads, markets, neighborhoods, etc. were rebuilt with our assistance.  With the Emperor’s (coerced, I’ll admit) signed edicts, authority was given to the people via and elected Parliament etc.To suggest fighting the Iraq war like we have fought others wouldn’t have worked   Doesn’t take into consideration the previous successes in our history.  The key to this is if it was fought like previous wars, Iran would also be missing a capital city right now.The USA’s problem is looking and acting like a coward to a culture that doesn’t fear cowards, no matter their size.  The middle east only understands and respects fear and power.  Facing annihilation with nowhere else to run makes for an excellent peace maker.I am quite sure I’ve made my point loud and clear here.  There may be innocent people in Palestine, but their culture and religion pretty much is what is causing their current problems.  It dictates how they act and react to the situation.  Real common sense and morality need not apply.

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